I've said it before and I'll say it again. You people who wish to give these companies tax break after tax break don't seem to understand that they don't give a DAY-UM about America. They have no hearts, they have no souls, they have no patriotism and their only allegiance is to the dollar (yen, pound, etc).
"Job creators" my arse....
"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
Gender: Posts:13321 Joined:May 2007 From:Santee, CA Bike:VS1400
Uncommon Valor
Posted: Apr 30, 2012 03:49 PM (Msg. 6 of 39)
How does your rant fit into the article. There is nothing in the article that implies taxbreaks have anything to do with what IBM is doing.
I know of no one that advocates for special tax breaks for any company including the ones that our glorious idiot leaders gave the bailout dollars to. You, however, advocate for punishing companies that are successful.
So tell me EXACTLY what tax break IBM is getting, that other companies don't, that makes this business plan profitable.
Is it the extra taxes they have to pay for overseas sales and service income, when they try to bring that money back into the USA?
Is it the taxes they have to pay on profit in this country?
However they manage to make the company profitable, is their dam business, and the business of the investors, as long as every company works under the same set of rules.
What tax breaks do you want to take away from them????
What tax break is it that drives the decision to do this?
BTW, is there any chance that the high business taxes, high energy costs, high employee costs (with holding taxes, insurance, etc), just MIGHT have something to do with their decisions.
Keep in mind that they are competing with companies based in countries with lower taxes, lower employee cost, lower energy costs and governments that aren't continually changing the rules and trying to punish them for being successful.
I agree with the writer that it is probably a bad move on IBM's part, but that is for the management and shareholders to decide. Not you, not me, not some idiot "community organizer" that has NEVER had to meet the demands of running a business, let alone keeping a job in a for profit company (which our glorious leader probably couldn't do. For proof look a Solyndra). Edited by woodburyhl on Apr 30, 2012 at 03:58 PM
I was sending an email and the spell checker rejected Obama, the first recommendation was, "Baa"
No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
I think the reason I haven't won the lottery is because I use all my luck up riding bikes.
Gender: Posts:11729 Joined:Feb 2006 From:Saint John, NB Bike:VS700/750
Crazy Ba$tards!!
Posted: Apr 30, 2012 03:56 PM (Msg. 7 of 39)
Dom, I was watching a news story the other day about Apple's profit margins with their overseas workforce vs an American based model. We know they're making gobs of money using China, but the story was estimating what they could be making if they stayed in The US. Still gobs of money but not as much return to the shareholders, of course...
Can the question be asked: "How much is Patriotism worth?"
I think it'd be fair to reward those businesses who stayed at home, but not those who chase their bottom line overseas.
Cuban wrote: Dom, I was watching a news story the other day about Apple's profit margins with their overseas workforce vs an American based model. We know they're making gobs of money using China, but the story was estimating what they could be making if they stayed in The US. Still gobs of money but not as much return to the shareholders, of course...
There should be balance between a company and its workforce. I have heard very bad things about the subcontractor that Apple uses in China. They had to install suicide nets around the building so that the employees wouldn't jump. Several nervous breakdowns from overwork. Woodbury doesn't give a sh-at though, as long as his consumer-grade garbage remains cheap.
Quote:
Cuban wrote:
Can the question be asked: "How much is Patriotism worth?"
I think it'd be fair to reward those businesses who stayed at home, but not those who chase their bottom line overseas.
I've absolutely thought that this "globalism" of the economy was going to be bad news for America. Everybody wants the cheapest labor, the least regulations, etc so that they can bring their goods to North America and make a killing. You want access to our market but want to stiff our workforce? TARIFF. If 50% of your company revenue comes from America then you had better either A) 50% of your workforce needs to be American or B)You better partner with an American firm.
"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
woodburyhl wrote: How does your rant fit into the article. There is nothing in the article that implies taxbreaks have anything to do with what IBM is doing.
No shi-at Sherlock! The article was meant as a reflection on the impact of Big Business on the Economy. I know, I know, you have reading comprehension problems.
Quote:
woodburyhl wrote: I know of no one that advocates for special tax breaks for any company including the ones that our glorious idiot leaders gave the bailout dollars to. You, however, advocate for punishing companies that are successful.
No I advocate punishing companies that are exploitative.
Quote:
woodburyhl wrote: So tell me EXACTLY what tax break IBM is getting, that other companies don't, that makes this business plan profitable.
See above.
Quote:
woodburyhl wrote:
Is it the extra taxes they have to pay for overseas sales and service income, when they try to bring that money back into the USA?
Is it the taxes they have to pay on profit in this country?
They are a global company headquartered in the US. They don't "bring money back into the USA" (whatever the phuck that means)
Quote:
woodburyhl wrote:
However they manage to make the company profitable, is their dam business, and the business of the investors, as long as every company works under the same set of rules.
What tax breaks do you want to take away from them????
How about every phucking one of them. Let's also whack every phucking contract they have with the US government as a lesson to ALL.
Quote:
woodburyhl wrote:
What tax break is it that drives the decision to do this?
BTW, is there any chance that the high business taxes, high energy costs, high employee costs (with holding taxes, insurance, etc), just MIGHT have something to do with their decisions.
Keep in mind that they are competing with companies based in countries with lower taxes, lower employee cost, lower energy costs and governments that aren't continually changing the rules and trying to punish them for being successful.
Like I said above. Their stock price DOUBLED in 2 years.....IN A GLOBAL RECESSION. This is not a move they NEEDED to do.
Quote:
woodburyhl wrote:
I agree with the writer that it is probably a bad move on IBM's part, but that is for the management and shareholders to decide. Not you, not me, not some idiot "community organizer" that has NEVER had to meet the demands of running a business, let alone keeping a job in a for profit company (which our glorious leader probably couldn't do. For proof look a Solyndra).
Oh, please tell me, how many businesses have YOU run? You who seems to know so phucking much....
Bottom line....you don't know shi-at and suffer from reading comprehension difficulties. Have you tried Hooked on Phonics?
"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
frmrpat wrote: sending all your manufacturing to China, India and so forth is a dangerous move as far as national defense is concerned.
When a country is no longer self sufficient it is easy prey for any country that is self sufficient
Honestly Pat, that really doesn't bother me too much. Have you ever heard of "Moore's Law"? Moore's Law states that every 2 years computing capacity will double. This has been accurate since the sixties. At this rate, computing power will 1000 times as much as it is today in 20 years. If that number is achieved (or thereabouts) then we will have Artificial Intelligence. Robots!
Everybody seems to think that China is just going to outright OWN everything. I don't see it that way at all, primarily due to Moore's Law. China is built on cheap labor. Already they are not cheap labor anymore and companies are relocating to Viet Nam, Indonesia, etc. If China loses their cheap labor edge, what will they have then? So no, it's not in the manufacturing of goods where the problem lies. We'll bring it all back here as soon as technology allows (we have the biggest market, no customs to deal with, no tariffs, good transportation, quicker time to market and a host of other benefits to offer then).
The problem is in the "services" - think intellectual capital. Already the Chinese will not let any company do business in China without a Chinese partner. Why? They want the intellectual property! In the new economy when there is artificial intelligence available, China will need to re-invent itself or have a billion people with nothing to do but b-itch. China is working to generate their own "service" economy and not do manufacturing for long. They realize that manufacturing is a no-win game but have to use it as a means to an end. The Chinese think long-long term.
"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
Gender: Posts:2761 Joined:Sep 2007 From:Outside Philly, PA Bike:LC1500
Posted: May 1, 2012 07:10 AM (Msg. 12 of 39)
From what I have seen through AP Wire is that about 30% of the "jobs" created were low paying McJobs, and about 65% were American companies hiring people overseas to either work remotely, or H1B themselves over here. That leaves 5% for "real" jobs here, want to bet those were executive level?
What about American workers getting jobs where they can, at minimum, shoestring budget support their families, even they don't exist anymore.
Gender: Posts:2761 Joined:Sep 2007 From:Outside Philly, PA Bike:LC1500
Posted: May 1, 2012 07:17 AM (Msg. 14 of 39)
Quote:
Dom-n-o wrote:
Honestly Pat, that really doesn't bother me too much. Have you ever heard of "Moore's Law"? Moore's Law states that every 2 years computing capacity will double. This has been accurate since the sixties. At this rate, computing power will 1000 times as much as it is today in 20 years. If that number is achieved (or thereabouts) then we will have Artificial Intelligence. Robots!
Moore's Law was good for its time, but circuits can only be made so small. There is an end to the theory and has been said that Moore's law will have a dead end unless manufacturers take a different path all together. They extended the theory with multi core processors, but how long can that last? Maybe light instead of electric pulses would extend it that much further.
They have no hearts, they have no souls, they have no patriotism and their only allegiance is to the dollar (yen, pound, etc).
"Job creators" my arse....
WORD FOR WORD DESCRIBES D.C.!!!! Nobody from IBM ever made me give them my money. IBM is NOT the problem Edited by sandmanrrr on May 1, 2012 at 07:53 AM
What tax breaks do you want to take away from them????
How about every phucking one of them. Let's also whack every phucking contract they have with the US government as a lesson to ALL.
Okay, so the reality of your post is that it really is a rant. You cannot name even one of the many tax breaks you want us to believe IBM is getting. And I have said THIS before, if you are angry about corporations getting unfair tax breaks, why aren't you petitioning Congress for redress of your grievance since it is they who make such tax breaks possible.
It is much easier for uninformed people to rant and whine about corporations and how they think they are being screwed by them, and as this post clarifies, it is quite another to provide solid evidence of same. It is more than a little arrogant to just spew a bunch of emotional diatribe, provide no factual evidence, yet expect everyone reading it to believe it.
Here are a couple aspects of this situation you did not consider in the rant. First, I could not find anywhere in the article you posted the link for that it was referring only to U.S. employees. Second, perhaps you are not aware but IBM has many subcontractors who do work for the company on its site. So while IBM may be reducing the rolls of its own employees, it may still provide lots of employment opportunities. Third, you likely have no idea what each employee costs IBM in terms of salary, employment taxes, unemployment taxes, benefits, etc. And what you clearly do not understand is that tax breaks offered by CONGRESS to large corporations is to offset some of this cost that otherwise might lead to failure of businesses, employee layoffs, etc. And even with these incentives an economic argument cannot be made for keeping manufacturing in the U.S. You can thank greedy unions such as the UAW for a large portion of this.
Bottom line is that I am guessing that article left out a great deal of information in order for the author to make the point he wanted. There is always more than meets the eye, and IBM has been a stalwart of the U.S. economy for what, 75 years? And the first time you hear some half-a$$ed story that they are a monster you jump on board with an ill-informed rant.
Mike Assman Gender: Posts:11866 Joined:Jun 2003 From:Stinky Feet, NC Bike:None
Gender: Posts:5294 Joined:Dec 2007 From:Not NY City, NY Bike:Suzuki
Leave the gun. Take the cannolis.
Posted: May 1, 2012 08:12 AM (Msg. 18 of 39)
Quote:
Dom-n-o wrote: they don't give a DAY-UM about America. They have no hearts, they have no souls, they have no patriotism and their only allegiance is to the dollar (yen, pound, etc)
Gee, Chief036 got pissed at me when I read him the riot act for recommending and buying a Chink ripoff of the Remington 870 when somebody else asked which 870 to buy.
He didn't take it kindly, and even responded the Chink gun was better than the American! It went downhill from there.
I have to agree with your point. We are stupid for off-shoring our manufacturing base.
-cc
J&C said on 4/09/10: Yes yes yes, Cheapcookies is right
Ninjato said on 6/18/12: PHUCK YOU a*****e f**king dick
Half_Crazy said on 8/30/12: Ya wanna know why? Because phuck you, that's why
Ninjato said on 9/4/12: I'll still beat you to a pulp....ciggy or no ciggy Yellow ass mother f**ker
Half_Crazy said on 9/12/12: Oh, and phuck you, you big steaming pile of sh!t
tbeck said on 11/14/12: CC, you are CORRECT
Gender: Posts:3217 Joined:Dec 2006 From:Somewherein, AZ Bike:Other
Posted: May 1, 2012 08:15 AM (Msg. 19 of 39)
Quote:
... TARIFF. If 50% of your company revenue comes from America then you had better either A) 50% of your workforce needs to be American or B)You better partner with an American firm.
This is exactly why they are moving off shore. India and China want to buy products from companies that design and build (not just support) those products locally. Since those economies are growing and the US is stagnating into has-been status, they're moving to where the future is.
franktiregod Mean Insensitive Bastard Gender: Posts:16536 Joined:Jan 2008 From:Stockbridge, GA Bike:LC1500
As seen on Intruder Alert
Posted: May 1, 2012 08:38 AM (Msg. 20 of 39)
Taxes, ridiculous regulations, expensive labor. Cant imagine why they leave.
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Posted: Apr 30, 2012 03:12 PM (Msg. 1 of 39)
Dom, I was watching a news story the other day about Apple's profit margins with their overseas workforce vs an American based model. We know they're making gobs of money using China, but the story was estimating what they could be making if they stayed in The US. Still gobs of money but not as much return to the shareholders, of course...
