Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 1, 2012 12:21 PM (Msg. 21 of 41)
Ok, thanks again. A good suggestion for sure. I did think of one other possible culprit. The K&N's I installed were not the pods, but the direct drop-in ones. They go into place with sealing grease. Since I'll have the tank off anyways, I think I'll take a look in there while I'm at it, maybe even reinsert with fresh grease. I think if there's a "seating" issue there, that would cause too much air and lots of popping.
The other things I'll be doing are the Coast Valve shims, cleaning those air inlet holes and possibly taking a look at the condition of that o-ring. I haven't done much in the way of carb work before so I think I'll give some more thought to a complete cleaning as I work on the rest. I'm sure there's probably a tutorial here on that. I also read a thread about checking for kinks or unusual bend in all the fuel lines, so I'll put that on my list to do with the tank off.
Thank you to everyone that has offered me suggestions on this. I appreciate it immensely.
2 years ago I also did the ,,shimming the coastvalves trick".
My bike sometimes had a very loud bang and popping at trotle chop, after I did that shimming trick.
I have searched and checked all possebillities to find why my bike had that popping at trottle chop and never realized it was becourse of that shimming trick I did 2 years ago. Also making it ritcher at idle with more turns out at the pilot srews didn't help to solve that problem.
A few days ago, I did take oud both shims and my bike is now popping free and no more ,, loud bangs"at trottle chop.
Stalling at fast trottle chop and at hard breaking tests was back after removing the shims and I am trying to solve that problem now with a litle higher setting from the idle screw. My bike doesn't stall when I adjust a faster idle rpm, but it stil does have the idle dip when I do a trotle chop and I do hope I can get that dip away with fine tuning from the pilot screws and make it a litle leaner at idle.
So this story means:
shimming the coast valves with a factory stock vs1400 can keep care for the stalling problem but it also can create a new problem and can make the bike to lean at decel an make it popping .
When I do have to make a choise between the two solutions , To me its better to turn the idle screw something in and have a higher idle rpm Vs shimming the coastvalves and do have the loud bangs sometimes and when that happens the bike every time was stalling .
loud pipes save lives , quiete pipes save your ears
Gender: Posts:474 Joined:Aug 2009 From:lawton, OK Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 2, 2012 08:53 AM (Msg. 23 of 41)
sounds like you have your work cut out for you. the SU-1487 drop-in filters shouldn't have caused much of a change in the A/F mixture, at least not enough to throw you this far off.
when you decide to get into the carb teardown i would make a few suggestions-
- the first time is a bitch. the carbs are buried and a pain in the ass but after the first time it gets a lot easier, dont give up because you will be in these carbs alot, thats just the way these bikes are.
- i'm sure you have already found the TECH. DATA LINKS LIST at the top of the column, find the part on how-to build your own sync tool. if you don't already have one handy you will want to build one ( built mine for about $3 ). keeping the carbs in sync is pretty routine maintenance on these bikes and if you pull either carb you will have to re-sync.
- when you go into the carbs change ALL the screws to metric cap head screws ( float bowl, slider cover, coasting valve cover and the tiny screws in the slider that hold the main jet needle in place ). they will make getting in and out of these carbs a breeze. the sizes are M4 and M5 for outside the carb and M3 for the slider screws.
- dont let the carbs scare you. they look complicated but are really pretty simple. MIKUNI's are easy to work on and get parts for. take your time and do 1 at a time and be thorough.
- while you have the back carb out go ahead and instal a vacuum port ( on the left side ) because you will need it to do the sync and it's a real bitch when its on the bike. the front carb already has one in it ( it's where the boost sensor hooks up on the right side, behind the horn ). just remove the block off screw, instal the port and leave it on ( cover it with a rubber vacuum cap ).
- when re-syncing the bike the fuel tank must be off in order to adjust the front carb. some guys have a fuel bottle they hang next to the bike for tuning. the easiest thing to do is run a fuel line to the fuel shut-off valve and drop the other end in a gas can. these bikes have a fuel pump ( not gravity feed ). they will draw fuel uphill or downhill so hanging a tank isn't necessary. this will save you having to buy/build something you don't need.
good luck on your tuning. any questions just ask, most of us have been in the carbs several times.
YES OFFICER, I DID STAB HER REPEATEDLY WITH A BLUNT OBJECT AND ATTEMPTED TO MAKE A MESS ....
superhauler wrote: sounds like you have your work cut out for you. the SU-1487 drop-in filters shouldn't have caused much of a change in the A/F mixture, at least not enough to throw you this far off.
when you decide to get into the carb teardown i would make a few suggestions-
- the first time is a bitch. the carbs are buried and a pain in the ass but after the first time it gets a lot easier, dont give up because you will be in these carbs alot, thats just the way these bikes are.
- i'm sure you have already found the TECH. DATA LINKS LIST at the top of the column, find the part on how-to build your own sync tool. if you don't already have one handy you will want to build one ( built mine for about $3 ). keeping the carbs in sync is pretty routine maintenance on these bikes and if you pull either carb you will have to re-sync.
- when you go into the carbs change ALL the screws to metric cap head screws ( float bowl, slider cover, coasting valve cover and the tiny screws in the slider that hold the main jet needle in place ). they will make getting in and out of these carbs a breeze. the sizes are M4 and M5 for outside the carb and M3 for the slider screws.
- dont let the carbs scare you. they look complicated but are really pretty simple. MIKUNI's are easy to work on and get parts for. take your time and do 1 at a time and be thorough.
- while you have the back carb out go ahead and instal a vacuum port ( on the left side ) because you will need it to do the sync and it's a real bitch when its on the bike. the front carb already has one in it ( it's where the boost sensor hooks up on the right side, behind the horn ). just remove the block off screw, instal the port and leave it on ( cover it with a rubber vacuum cap ).
- when re-syncing the bike the fuel tank must be off in order to adjust the front carb. some guys have a fuel bottle they hang next to the bike for tuning. the easiest thing to do is run a fuel line to the fuel shut-off valve and drop the other end in a gas can. these bikes have a fuel pump ( not gravity feed ). they will draw fuel uphill or downhill so hanging a tank isn't necessary. this will save you having to buy/build something you don't need.
good luck on your tuning. any questions just ask, most of us have been in the carbs several times.
My bike is synced with my carbtune and I also use a colortune. All adjustings I do myself for over more as 25 years . Just looking to solve this idle dip problem without shimming the coast valves becourse that did make my bike popping, I do know now. Edited by Theo on May 2, 2012 at 03:39 PM
loud pipes save lives , quiete pipes save your ears
Gender: Posts:267 Joined:Oct 2010 From:Tucson, AZ Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 2, 2012 11:07 PM (Msg. 25 of 41)
Quote:
Theo wrote: 2 years ago I also did the ,,shimming the coastvalves trick".
My bike sometimes had a very loud bang and popping at trotle chop, after I did that shimming trick.
So this story means:
shimming the coast valves with a factory stock vs1400 can keep care for the stalling problem but it also can create a new problem and can make the bike to lean at decel an make it popping .
When I do have to make a choise between the two solutions , To me its better to turn the idle screw something in and have a higher idle rpm Vs shimming the coastvalves and do have the loud bangs sometimes and when that happens the bike every time was stalling .
In actual fact, it is RICH on decel.... When you chop the throttle, it creates a higher than normal vacuum in the intake tract, which pulls additional fuel into the engine. With the throttle closed, it doesn't get enough air in the mixture, so the extra fuel goes thru and enters the exhaust system, which also doesn't have enough oxygen to igite that fuel. When it exits the exhaust, the open air has plenty of O2, so that fuel ignites and you get popping backfires.....
The only function of the coast valve is to shut off fuel flow in the idle circuit under extreme vacuum conditions, to prevent the above scenario.... the shims increase the amount of vacuum required to close the idle passage.
Rich Baker - NRA Life, AZCDL, Trail Riders of S. AZ. , AMA Life, BRC, HEAT Dirt Riders, SAMA....
Tennessee Squire
'90 FJ1200, '03 WR450F, '97 Suzuki Intruder 1400(free) ;8^P
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 3, 2012 09:57 AM (Msg. 26 of 41)
Well, I got a good start. I have not removed the carbs at this point, but did as much as I think I can with everything in place. I'll remove them and do a full cleaning if it still seems necessary. So, here's what I've done:
1. Removed both carb covers and examined the diaphragms which seem in good shape
2. Sprayed some carb cleaner at the plate area followed by air (being very careful not to hit the diaphragms)
3. Cleaned out the front carb air inlets with cleaner and air. Also sprayed some cleaner at the needle jet and then worked the piston in and out a few times very gently.
4. Replace the Philips screws on the carb covers and Coaster Valve covers with hex bolts.
5. Shimmed both front and back coasting valves (the washers that fit mine exactly were M6 Fender Washers, purchased at Canadian Tire).
Once I got this all done, I connected a gas can and fuel line and started her up. My 1st impression was that the bike idled very quickly on both sides using 2 1/2 turns rear and 3 front, although the front is still a bit slower and quite a bit louder. The other thing I noticed is that when I turn the bike off, I get a very loud "boom" of a backfire a few seconds after the engine stops (I think I freaked out the neighbours a few times, haha).
One other thing I noticed that I'd missed before is to do with my exhaust, although this hasn't changed since I've had the bike, is that the cross connect between pipes has been cut and plugged. I'm not sure of the overall impact this will have.
Here are some shots:
Rear Carb:
Front Carb:
Hex Bolts Rear:
Hex Bolts Front:
Don
Quote:
superhauler wrote: sounds like you have your work cut out for you. the SU-1487 drop-in filters shouldn't have caused much of a change in the A/F mixture, at least not enough to throw you this far off.
when you decide to get into the carb teardown i would make a few suggestions-
- the first time is a bitch. the carbs are buried and a pain in the ass but after the first time it gets a lot easier, dont give up because you will be in these carbs alot, thats just the way these bikes are.
- i'm sure you have already found the TECH. DATA LINKS LIST at the top of the column, find the part on how-to build your own sync tool. if you don't already have one handy you will want to build one ( built mine for about $3 ). keeping the carbs in sync is pretty routine maintenance on these bikes and if you pull either carb you will have to re-sync.
- when you go into the carbs change ALL the screws to metric cap head screws ( float bowl, slider cover, coasting valve cover and the tiny screws in the slider that hold the main jet needle in place ). they will make getting in and out of these carbs a breeze. the sizes are M4 and M5 for outside the carb and M3 for the slider screws.
- dont let the carbs scare you. they look complicated but are really pretty simple. MIKUNI's are easy to work on and get parts for. take your time and do 1 at a time and be thorough.
- while you have the back carb out go ahead and instal a vacuum port ( on the left side ) because you will need it to do the sync and it's a real bitch when its on the bike. the front carb already has one in it ( it's where the boost sensor hooks up on the right side, behind the horn ). just remove the block off screw, instal the port and leave it on ( cover it with a rubber vacuum cap ).
- when re-syncing the bike the fuel tank must be off in order to adjust the front carb. some guys have a fuel bottle they hang next to the bike for tuning. the easiest thing to do is run a fuel line to the fuel shut-off valve and drop the other end in a gas can. these bikes have a fuel pump ( not gravity feed ). they will draw fuel uphill or downhill so hanging a tank isn't necessary. this will save you having to buy/build something you don't need.
good luck on your tuning. any questions just ask, most of us have been in the carbs several times.
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 3, 2012 11:20 AM (Msg. 27 of 41)
So, back at it today. Below are a couple of videos with sound (easiest way for me to record sound). I had things set to 2 turns rear and 3 turns front. The 1st one is with the choke on, the 2nd without. At the end of the 2nd I turn the bike off and you can hear the backfire, although it sounds much louder in person than it does in the video. Other than the backfire (which is on the front cylinder) it sounds like it's running half descent (at least at idle). The other thing is, it seems to be idling quite a lot faster than it did previously. I do plan on doing a carb sync next, once I build that tool. Does anyone have any thoughts on finding an appropriate fitting for the rear sync location?
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 3, 2012 11:41 AM (Msg. 28 of 41)
Okay, got that last idling issue sorted out. Was the throttle cable. Now it sounds pretty descent at 2 1/2 front 2 rear. I'll play around with it a bit more and then try to get a test ride in later. The loud backfire is now gone with the idle problem.
Gender: Posts:474 Joined:Aug 2009 From:lawton, OK Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 3, 2012 01:27 PM (Msg. 29 of 41)
outstanding
glad to here your tracking the gremlins down. watched your videos and the idle sounds high with the choke off. intruders are supposed to be around 900-1000 RPM. but i'm guessing that was the sticking throttle cable.
you were asking about the adapter for the rear carb, i got mine thru the local bike shop. i looked in my records and the receipt says BRASS ADAPTER PERMANENT 5MM. just tell them what its for and they will know but its not cheap ( nothing is through a bike shop ), it ran me $8 for the little bastard.
i know when i got it i was in a hurry ( had a cross country run i was fixing to leave on ) so i ate the cost and moved on. looking back you could probably go to an auto parts house and ask for a 5MM brass vacuum port adapter and they might know what your talking about, might even be a little cheaper but a bike shop will certainly know.
YES OFFICER, I DID STAB HER REPEATEDLY WITH A BLUNT OBJECT AND ATTEMPTED TO MAKE A MESS ....
Today I checked my bike again to solve te problem with de idle dip at fast chopping the trottle. I did re-adjust the A/F screws and had a nice idle on both Cylinders tested each separate one after the other. Took off one sparkplug cap (front cylinder) and did a seperate plug in that cap and layed it against the cylinder . Started the bike on only the rear cylinder and adjusted the rear cilinder on best idle. (A/F 2 turns)
Than I did the same with the front cylinder and they did have about the same idle rmp.
(2,6 turns out)
Than I again did a synctest with the carbtune and I don't know why, at idle it was Ok, but at a little higher rpm it was again out of sync. I did adjust this a month ago also and I am shure everything was in sync than. Maby the carbs needed a resync now becourse I did take out the shims from the coasting valves or adjusting the A/f I did, made a little difference in syncing.
I have adjusted 1000- and 2000---3000 rpm and also did check if they where in sync with the gastank on it. So now I am shure that both carbs are in sync again.
When I do a fast trottle till half trottle and and than fast chop it, there is no dip in idle anymore.
When I do full trottle (5 or 6000 rpm) and than fast chopping it, there stil is a litlle dip in idle rpm, but the bike doesn't stall anymore . I can live with that and my problem is solved to me.
loud pipes save lives , quiete pipes save your ears
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 3, 2012 04:08 PM (Msg. 31 of 41)
So, I got everything back together and the bike was warming up nicely when it suddenly died (sputtered out). On examination, the rear carb vent line was coughing out gas. It still does then when I try to crank the engine. I'm a little out of my element on this one. Any thoughts?
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 3, 2012 06:02 PM (Msg. 32 of 41)
Okay, so for everything I fix, I find more problems :). I had to access the rear carb again and reworked the piston. No more pumping gas out the vent. Put everything back together and discovered that one of the fuel lines at the pump had a split. No doubt due to being moved around a bit, but it must have been weak. It's now replaced too. Now I've lost the daylight but will be back to it hopefully tomorrow (although there's rain forecast).
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 4, 2012 09:32 AM (Msg. 33 of 41)
Well, went for my 1st ride today. Things are looking good. The coast valve shims are definitely doing their job as I had no stalls at all. The bike overall seems to be running fairly well. I do still need to make some adjustments, but I'm going to do a carb sync 1st. Going to gather my parts today for that. I've been thinking about this whole issue some more. It seems that the cleaning I did in the carbs is probably what caused the improvement. Now I'm wondering if I may have gotten some dirty gas that plugged or partially plugged something. I guess I'll never know for sure, but one thing is certain, these carbs will be getting a proper cleaning at the end of the season if not before.
Gender: Posts:836 Joined:Sep 2011 From:Aurora, CO Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 4, 2012 09:43 AM (Msg. 34 of 41)
Don, Glad your getting all the bugs worked out finally.
I think you'll definitely find freshly cleaned carbs help out alot, once you get the carbs Synced correctly I'm predicting a BIG ear to ear grin will appear on your face.
I always though my bike ran well, no complaints by me good power/accel. But once I learned how to get he running correctly (from tips/advice from this site) I was even happier.
Like night versus day when she's running correctly.
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 4, 2012 10:06 AM (Msg. 35 of 41)
Hey, thanks for those tips. I'm going to look at the auto parts store today for my various parts. I'm also going to need a tach, so may as well pick that up too.
Don
Quote:
superhauler wrote: outstanding
glad to here your tracking the gremlins down. watched your videos and the idle sounds high with the choke off. intruders are supposed to be around 900-1000 RPM. but i'm guessing that was the sticking throttle cable.
you were asking about the adapter for the rear carb, i got mine thru the local bike shop. i looked in my records and the receipt says BRASS ADAPTER PERMANENT 5MM. just tell them what its for and they will know but its not cheap ( nothing is through a bike shop ), it ran me $8 for the little bastard.
i know when i got it i was in a hurry ( had a cross country run i was fixing to leave on ) so i ate the cost and moved on. looking back you could probably go to an auto parts house and ask for a 5MM brass vacuum port adapter and they might know what your talking about, might even be a little cheaper but a bike shop will certainly know.
Gender: Posts:4214 Joined:Sep 2011 From:San Martin, CA Bike:VS1400
Worf says, "Ride in Glory with Honor"
Posted: May 4, 2012 09:28 PM (Msg. 38 of 41)
Maybe the SeaFoam is deteriorating your fuel lines and the gunk is coming for there? If you see black particles inside your carbs, it's an indication that you may need to replace the fuel lines, if you haven't already. This is the kind of thing you'll have to go look inside the carb bowls to see.
Yo- Edited by YoDude9999 on May 4, 2012 at 09:30 PM
Gender: Posts:997 Joined:Mar 2012 From:Ottawa, ON Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 12, 2012 07:46 AM (Msg. 39 of 41)
I posted some of this elsewhere, but thought it would be best to put it in this thread.
I just finished syncing my carbs with the homemade tool. I'll say that they were WAY out of sync. In fact, they were so far out that if it hadn't been for warnings I'd seen here, the front carb would have sucked in the oil, but I was ready for it ;-). Here's a link to the video taken while I was tuning it (actually I'd already made the adjustments but wanted to record the tool in operation). Idle sync can be seen at about 20 seconds in, followed by sync at 2000. I must say, the tool I made works quite well. Now I just need to do some fine tuning on the A/F's.
Right now I'm at 2 1/2 rear and about 3 1/4 front. The front actually sounds really good now but the rear is popping quite a bit still. I'm considering removing the coasting valve shim on the rear to see if that helps. Someone did mention that shimming sometimes causes popping. I'm starting to consider that maybe the coasting valve shim might not have been necessary if the carbs had been synced 1st. What's everyone's take on how much the rear shim affects stalling when coming to a stop versus the front coasting valve. Overall I'm quite happy even though I'm not yet fully adjusted. I've noticed a big difference already. Also, some may remember my front A/F screw was previously set to 4 1/2 or 5 by the previous owner, so now it's more in the ballpark at 3 1/4 or so.
Gender: Posts:836 Joined:Sep 2011 From:Aurora, CO Bike:VS1400
Posted: May 12, 2012 08:08 AM (Msg. 40 of 41)
joydon,
Since you've switched the stock phillips screws out to allen head bolts once she's sync'd why not take the shims out of the coaster valve and try it. This will not affect your sync and since you've got the better bolts in you can do this without removing the carbs.
You just have to lift the tank a bit for the front, block of wood helps to hold it up. Take off the left side cover (seats to probably) to get at the rear, possible loosen the forward coil (rear cyclinder's coil).
If it improves, great, if not put one or both back in. Yodudes varying thickness idea seems smart to me. I originally had thinner more machined 1/4" washers as shims in my coast valves but found the thicker rough cut ones worked better. I did have to move my pilots in about 1/8" with the thicker coast valves, she'd almost stall on a quick stop. I do not like the idea of increasing the idle with the thumb screw once she's synced, I prefer to feather the pilots accordinly.
These final adjustements are going to be more what you like. Kinda like pipes, some like things loud and some for muffled. Edited by Long Hauler on May 12, 2012 at 09:00 AM
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Posted: May 1, 2012 12:21 PM (Msg. 21 of 41)
after removing the shims and I am trying to solve that problem now with a litle higher setting from the idle screw. My bike doesn't stall when I adjust a faster idle rpm, but it stil does have the idle dip when I do a trotle chop and I do hope I can get that dip away with fine tuning from the pilot screws and make it a litle leaner at idle.
once she's sync'd why not take the shims out of the coaster valve and try it. This will not affect your sync and since you've got the better bolts in you can do this without removing the carbs.